Lessons From Buffalo: How To Stop Slumlords and Protect Urban Spaces
Today, Abby is joined by Bernice Radle, a small-scale developer and historic building preservationist from Buffalo, New York. They cover two developing stories: First, a new bill was proposed that would give the Buffalo housing court more power to sell or repair buildings taken from absentee or negligent landlords. Second, the Historic Preservation Fund is currently at risk.
Bernice and Abby discuss how these changes could affect small-scale developers and historic preservationists. Bernice also explores how these two fields are closely linked and should work together to save urban spaces.
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Abby Newsham 0:04
This is Abby, and you are listening to upzoned.
Abby Newsham 0:18
Hey everyone, thanks for listening to another episode of upzoned, the show where we take a story from the news each week that touches the strong towns conversation and we upzone it, we talk about it in depth. I'm Abby Newsham, a planner in Kansas City, and I apologize. It's been like a month since I've recorded one of these, but I will be back on it being more consistent for the rest of the year, I promise. And I have a bonus today, because I'm here with Bernice Radle from Buffalo, New York, and we are covering two different articles today. So hopefully that that that helps to make up for the absence. Hi, Bernice, thanks for joining me.
Bernice Radle 1:02
Hi Abby. I'm excited to be here. I'm always excited to hang out with you.
Abby Newsham 1:06
Yeah! Well, so you've joined me a couple of times on this show, but maybe before we jump into the articles, you can talk a little bit about your background. You're the executive director from Preservation Buffalo Niagara, but obviously you're a lot more than that. So I'd like to give you a little bit of time to share a little bit about yourself to the listeners who have not met you yet.
Bernice Radle 1:28
Yeah. So my name is Bernice Radle. I have a cat named Jane Jacobs. That's how serious I am with urban planning. Start there. I am a small scale developer in Buffalo. I've been in real estate since 2007. I'm 38 years old, but I've been in it since I was 21 years old. So I've been working in real estate, small scale development projects since then. I am the one of the partners in neighborhood evolution. So we have a course on strong towns about how to renovate a building, or, you know, become a champion of your town. We do lots of training and teachings around the country. I am the executive director of a nonprofit here, preservation nonprofit. And I just bought a cool music venue with my friend Frank, called The Mohawk Place in Buffalo. So it's like the stickiest, dirtiest, coolest, like dive bar music venue that you could ever imagine, all the stickers everywhere, you know, just unbelievable, all these great bands that have come through, and we're gonna revive that and work actually on an artist and music spaces above it. So anyway, so I've got my hands full, and I live in Buffalo. And you know anybody listening, if you think Buffalo is just like winter and chicken wings, we do get snow, and we do love chicken wings, but we're also a really good, walkable city with a good zoning code and a strong towns buffalo group. And you know we're doing, we're trying to do the right things here, so don't write us off like a snowy, weird place up north.
Abby Newsham 3:04
Of course not. We would never do that, Bernice.
Bernice Radle 3:08
You'd be surprised. They're like, Buffalo? You know, I'm like, let me tell you.
Bernice Radle 3:12
Yeah Buffalo is cool. I mean, I haven't visited yet, but I've seen your pictures, and it looks like a really, really cool city. And I need to make a point to to come see you.
Bernice Radle 3:21
Anytime.
Abby Newsham 3:23
Awesome. Well, we, as I promised, we are covering two different articles today, and I'll briefly give an overview of each of them, and we can talk about how they're weaved together and why they're important. So the first one is published in WGR Z entitled proposed bill would give buffalo housing court greater authority over derelict properties. So this is a newly proposed New York state bill that aims to strengthen Buffalo's housing court by giving it greater enforcement power over owners of vacant and derelict properties. The legislation would basically allow judges to place liens on neglected properties or even appoint independent receivers to make repairs like Bernice, potentially.
Bernice Radle 4:13
Yup. I am a certified receiver.
Abby Newsham 4:15
I love that. So this would, you know, allow the state to step in when absentee or negligent landlords fail to maintain their buildings. That's really big for historic preservation. I actually think that that sounds very similar to something that we have here called the abandoned Housing Act in Missouri. And there's been some interesting work that Greg Lombardi from the lichens neighborhood, has done that sounds very similar to this. He actually has an interview on strong towns, if you want to look them up. The second article is kind of a negative one. This is entitled, preservation under threat, a critical moment for historic preservation fund, published through buffalo. Raising. So this is about a fund that was created to grant money to property owners to stabilize and rehabilitate threatened historic buildings, and it is facing a potential funding crisis. The fund has been really instrumental in rescuing properties in Buffalo and is now running low due to the high demand and limited replenishment. So that is kind of the other side of the coin of what's going on with historic preservation, both positive and negatives. Bernice, why were you so excited to cover both articles today?
Bernice Radle 5:42
So if anybody's about to turn this off, you need to stay for a second. Because I would like to challenge preservation and urbanism. Obviously, they go hand in hand, okay? And when I say preservation, I do not necessarily mean like fancy Frank Lloyd Wright building. I mean our walkable neighborhoods around the country are either under threat from demolition, for infill, like big, big projects, or most of the places, believe it or not, you know, you talk about housing, whatever, they are under threat because there's not enough resources, not enough financing, not enough money, not enough willpower, not enough small developers, right? And so what we're seeing around the country, whether even in Casey or Buffalo. Detroit, right? Memphis. There's all of these great buildings that are at risk. And you know what's at risk is our urbanism, our walkable places, our strong towns, our tax revenue, right? All of these things matter when it comes to preservation. So we're going to talk about preservation today, about these two articles. But I want -- you know, if you're standard urbanist, you're ready to turn this off. You know, don't. There's a whole other realm out there. And then to the preservationists of the world, I want to say, let's get you over to urbanism. Let's get you over to strong towns. Let's get you to, you know, CNU and the world of cities and urbanism, because I think preservationists box themselves in too. So this is like to me, you and I, we're going to chat for a little bit. But my goal is that we open up our hearts to preservationists, you know, from urbanist perspective, and also, as preservationists, we say, hey, wait a second. Let's talk about fiscal responsibility. Let's talk about strong towns. Let's talk about, you know, how we can do more action based work in preservation so we can save our walkable places. So that's a long way of saying old buildings matter and and I will also say, as a preservationist, new buildings matter too. So don't be like, Oh, Bernice doesn't want anything new. That's also not true. But I think, as somebody who lives in arguably one of the most beautiful places in the country, Buffalo is beautiful city. Yes, you know, we're constantly fighting against demolition, and we have preservation like in our blood. So, like, what happens to, you know, Grandview, Missouri, or, I don't know, you know, cedar, yeah, totally No. Or Detroit, you know where it's, it's maybe a little bit less preservation. So, yeah, I just think, I think we want it. We should talk about it. So let's, let's, yeah,
Abby Newsham 8:17
I love that, by the way, that's, I want to, I want to bring it to the ground, and start by talking a little bit about what preservation kind of means to you, how it's perceived as a movement. I'll say that for myself. You know, I started going to architecture school, and then went into urban planning design, and I've always considered myself to be somebody who, like, really values historic buildings, preservation of those buildings. Um, but I've also always been somebody who's really interested in, like, Let's build around those buildings. Let's, you know, let's, let's revitalize the urban core. And I think, I think that there is a, there's kind of a riff, I was really disappointed to kind of learn of this riff between certain segments of preservationists and people who are urbanists. And I think that there's this, like scale issue where, you know, we can think of preservation in terms of, like the building itself, but we can also think of preservation in terms of like a neighborhood or a district. And when you zoom out of a place, there may be neighborhoods and districts that have a lot of vacant lots everywhere, and then some really amazing historic assets. And I think that that's where this riff comes in, where, like, people don't agree on how you build in those areas and how you help to revitalize them in a way that is, I guess, appropriate or sensitive, or whatever. I mean, there's so many different opinions in terms of modern architecture and whatnot. So maybe we can just start by like, talking about, what is this box you speak of, of preservation? What does that look like?
Bernice Radle 10:15
Well, preservation for a long time, for a very long time, like preservation 1.0 was like our very historic theater is about to get demolished, and someone needs a run in the building while we buy time to file a lawsuit and save a building. That's actually was like 1970s 80s, 90s, 2000s Buffalo and around the country, Cleveland, Detroit, like historic neighborhoods and towns they were just trying to save, you know, the old theater. Let's just start. Everybody knows, the big old, grand, beautiful theater with plaster molding and red draped carpet or drapes, you know, and and uncomfortable seats, but, like, cool, you know, whatever. So that was like preservation. One point out where it's like, save the mansions, you know, Darwin or Frank Lloyd Wright's buildings in Buffalo were literally about to be torn down, you know, which is, you know, arguably one of the best architects in in America. We have Louis Sullivan, the guarantee building here that's been saved twice. So that goes as like, old preservation. So it's typically like, this building is historic. It's going to get torn down. Let's fight to save it and do a lawsuit. And then someone comes along and saves it and kind of makes it so, right? And it's usually some in almost every preservation battle. I feel like it's one person that, like literally throws themselves at the building to save this, but so, but when I started sort of really stepped on the scene, you know, I'm 38 so I'm not, you know, I haven't been around forever, right? But when I stepped on the scene, what I called it preservation 2.0 which was okay, the government just gave every unit town across America 1000s and really millions of dollars to tear down any vacant property because it was going through the urban renewal, like 2008 910, 1112, so buffalo tore down 10,000 plus properties on the east side of Buffalo, on the west side of Buffalo. Yeah, and we're not alone. South Bend in Kansas City, Kansas City. I've been to Kansas City a couple times. We've seen vacant lots everywhere Detroit, right? And these were really good buildings, by the way, that paid tax revenue. So when Buffalo's got a $70 million deficit, and I think 10,000 properties would probably bring in $20 million right now, if they had saved them, right? So anyway, I digress. But the preservation 2.0 movement is like, wait a second, urbanism matters. Our walkable places matter. How are we going to save these like, little cool buildings, all the fine grain urbanism, like the two story mixed use buildings, the really cool like, you know, houses, duplexes, you know, triplexes, all of that actually matters, but it may not have a very historic story. It's not like Grover Cleveland lived here, right? Or like, you know, or Frank Lloyd Wright built it's like, no, this was built by some random dude, you know. And it's got cool woodwork, but it's still important. And so preservation 2.0 is like, hey, let's stop demolition. Let's save what we can. And now we're entering at least in Buffalo, because we're more of a leader. We're entering preservation 3.0 which is like, we've renovated all of our historic build, most of our historic buildings, but and we've renovated all of the easy stuff, but now we're facing this, this, like, oh my gosh, you know what's left? The really weird old rooming houses that have small rooms -- which make great artist space, by the way, Abby, for you -- rooming houses, like the really the unique churches that are really hard to adapt, you know. And all around the country, what we're dealing with is, how do we change our zoning code to embrace these buildings? Which is the strong town, the model right? Get the code right, get the parking requirements gone, so the churches could get adapted and these rooming houses can find their way through. And you know, how do we deal with the hard stuff, especially at a time post COVID, where banks aren't lending as much, where money is tight, like all of this stuff. It's like a combined effort. And so that's like preservation one, two and now three. And by the way, most cities are still in two. So if you're listening to this and you're like, oh, okay, buffalo, we are leading a preservation movement. We are one of the leaders. And so you know it's coming. You know, you're gonna fix all your old buildings at some point, and then you're gonna be left with all the really tough old buildings. And you're gonna be like, Bernice, how do we do this? And I'm gonna pick up the call and help you. I promise. So, but, um, but yeah. So that's basically preservation in a nutshell. And so we're buffalo is now, and to the derelict properties, what we have left are literally. Really, I don't even want to offend anybody. I'm trying not to offend. I don't want to offend anybody. But they're slum lord people who have completely left their properties vacant. They're long gone, or they're in their head and they have this dreamy vision that they're gonna like do some things, and they can't do anything, they don't have any money, they don't have any means. They don't know what they're doing, and they're just convinced. And, I mean, I have said openly, people ask me all the time, oh, well, what's wrong with people? Why do they think that they could get this done? And I'm like, you know, I'm not a doctor. I don't have a the ability to diagnose people. I don't know what they're thinking. I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist or a therapist. I don't know. You know, all I know is from the outside, who works with these people, it tends to be some series of delusion and ego. And so we're stuck with these buildings that are so important. We have a housing crisis, crisis, right? Everybody knows. And we have these buildings that could easily be housing, and buffalo is a climate refuge city, right? So we should be preparing, like, really preparing and thinking about, you know, these -- I mean, these are churches. We have a wonder bread factory that is, like seven stories tall and has the Wonder Bread at the top. And I'm like, why is this vacant, you know? But again, they're the hard put things. So that's like, a long way of saying, you know, preservation is not just about the fancy building anymore, or the fancy landscaping, you know. Some, some of that stuff is very important. I'm not poo-pooing on on the Martin house, or Frank Lloyd Wright or the guarantee all of those are very very critical.
Abby Newsham 16:46
But it's more.
Bernice Radle 16:48
But now it's more, yeah. In Kansas City, I mean, you've got tons of things. It's not just about the fancy buildings anymore, right? Your neighborhood, your house matters, Abby.
Abby Newsham 16:59
Right. And it's like, my house is like, no, it's not a historically designated property, but it is a historic property, right? I mean, this is the second time I've owned a quote, unquote, historic house. I love old houses, and I love working on them, and they're like little art projects, as if I didn't have, you know, enough projects in my life, but I love working on them. And I think that to your point about kind of the historic preservation movement, and you know, there's, there was the money that was spent on demolition, and it seems that then these tools were created that are intended to delay or stop demolition, right? I mean, there's Historic Preservation overlays and designations. There's these tools that were kind of established to stop or delay demolition, to to guide renovation of historic buildings, so that people aren't putting, I don't know, crazy stuff on the facade, and, like, ruining the architecture. And those are kind of, they're very like protective, right? And I think that that is also reflected in the zoning of the same era. Like zoning was kind of, things were down zoned. Everything was about like protection, and so they serve some purpose in cities, but we're in this different world now, right? It's 2025. Zoning is evolving to become a lot more proactive, flexible, appropriate for the market, and I think that what you're doing in Buffalo with preservation. I mean, it's interesting, because you really worked on the zoning reform in Buffalo, and I think that you're applying that same kind of like Doer attitude and proactive approach to preservation, like how zoning is reforming and other movements are reforming, that I think that this is really the era of like doers. My frustration has always been like, somebody pulls the demo permit and then it becomes this big uproar but there's not really any power that people have, other than to create a public controversy about the demolition that that is being proposed. But it's like, hey, why don't we figure out how to save this building? Let's figure out the financing. Let's find a way to own this building, and that is what you're doing. And I think I've had some people in the preservation world in Kansas City ask about you and talk about the work that you're doing, but maybe you can kind of talk about that approach and and how it's different. And I mean, it's experimental at this point too. And so how, how has it worked, and how's it been successful?
Bernice Radle 20:03
Well, I think let's- I agree, I'm here for like, doing it, getting it done, you know, trying to at least. But what I always say is working in a nonprofit- So I do private, small scale development on my own right, just private right, like, go to a bank, renovate the building, and, you know. But what's fun about preservation nonprofits, nonprofits dedicated to urbanism or place making, all of those, is that we have more things to play with. So, at PBN Preservation Buffalo Niagara, we have, for example, somebody who wanted to tear down an old brothel from 1845 pre Civil War. Okay. But instead of that, we're like, okay, give it to us. We would love it, right? Developer signs it over. They get a tax write off or whatever, I don't know. And all of a sudden we have this old brothel, which is a whole cool, wild story. And so what goes into this is, now we're able to save it. We're we got $1.4 million in grant funding, and we're putting our offices in it because that's how we got some of the grant. But we got money from cultural, we got money from the state, from the county, from from parks, like all this stuff. Because as a nonprofit, you can actually like ask. You can say, hey, I want to create an artist collective, right? And have a gallery on the first floor. We're going to create a nonprofit. We're going to ask for half a million bucks to, like, create this. And you're not always guaranteed, but as a nonprofit, you can actually ask. You're in a room, it's a different kind of room, right? And so it's a different kind of room and different kind of assets and different kind of things. So, so at PBN, we have a loan fund. We have a stabilization fund. So we stabilize properties for people funded through the state, and then through us, and we actually renovate. We do the stabilization ourselves, because and then we to help small scale developers, like, it's not our building, but we want to help other people do it. We just got 1.8 million. I applied for affordable housing money. I don't know any preservation organizations that are looking at this, and it's like, why not? I applied for 1.8 million. I got 1.8 million to renovate 27 apartments in Niagara Falls, New York, and all for vacant properties, they have to be vacant. And so as a preservationist, what's my mission? My mission is to, you know, we want walkable places. We want urbanism. We want these buildings to stand up. And now we're going to be able to give small property owners $75,000 per unit, per unit, through this fund, and and we're going to renovate it, which I'm bringing my renovation expertise. I've got a construction manager on staff. I've got, like, all this stuff, right? And preservation organizations would not normally think that way. And then to bring it to the article about the derelict property owners, so receivership and abandonment, right? Those are tools, even in Kansas City, which or Kansas, the state which is, you know, politically a little more red than New York, there are vacant buildings, and people don't want vacant buildings next to their properties, you know. If you've vacated your property and you're not taking care of it -- I'm gonna probably get crap about this -- at some point, the city or the town or the village needs to step in, or a nonprofit needs to step in, because if you can't take care of it, sell it. You can't sell it, you don't want to sell it, you're not responding, nobody knows where you are? Tough luck. Sorry. There should be rules in place that say, okay, we're going to give this to a receiver. And this goes back to the article. It goes to someone like me as a nonprofit, and then we're going to put a roof on it, so that way it stops the decay. And guess what? You can't pay us back on that roof. We're taking it from him. We're going to foreclose, you know what I mean. And sorry, that's a really controversial thing, and I believe that their property rights are very important. But at some point when you haven't touched your property in 15 years and people are falling through the front porch and you're nowhere to be found, enough is enough. I don't think anybody would disagree, you know.
Abby Newsham 24:11
Yeah, because you're creating blight and you're actually harming people around you by allowing something that you own to go to waste, essentially.
Bernice Radle 24:23
Yeah, and property values, tax values, right? Everybody talking about how your taxes are going to be raised unless you can find other ways to bring in tax money. Well, vacant properties suppress tax income across a block, you know. So if you're one vacant property on the block, could be reducing your tax base for that whole block by like 10, 15, 20% Well, that's a lot of money, and then that burden gets shifted onto us as taxpayers, and that's really unfortunate. So, when I think about preservation doing and think about this article about derelict property owners, about receivership, I will tell you a success story. And people think this is pie in the sky, but our organization -- this was before I got here, actually. Jesse, our former executive director, she really laid a lot of this foundation too, because she's also a doer. She saw a vacant property, pushed for receivership, and said, okay, we will replace the roof. So we got receivership through the organization, replaced the roof. The owner nowhere to be found at all, not responding to housing court, not responding to certified letters, nothing, nowhere to be found. And so when we basically got access to the property, we became owners of the property. And what we did is, instead of holding it internally at as a nonprofit, we did an RFP and we sold it to a person who wanted to renovate the apartments and make them naturally affordable. And so that was like, 2021, 2022. Now this building is super cute, fully rented, you know, and it's a great little three unit. It's pink. It's super cute. I love painting all my houses pink, but I didn't influence him. And so now this property is paying taxes, and it's a success. And right next door is a property owned by the same guy, same derelict landlord, and so we're pushing for receivership across the state, you know, but also specific to Buffalo, so that way we can fight these kind of longtime slumlords one on one, through a nonprofit. I feel like I'm talking a lot.
Abby Newsham 26:42
No, this is great.
Bernice Radle 26:43
It's so special because it's the strong towns approach of doing, right? It's like, not bending the rule, because these are the rules, but I feel like I'm pushing a rock up the hill because we're trying to get this passed and when we're trying to get these things done. But when you see the success, you know that it matters, you know that you can do it and that it's worth doing. And preservation organizations around the country are really structured like that. They're like tours and, you know, advocacy a little bit. And so I really encourage preservation. If there's any preservation, people listening, you know, or share it, because this is a business, and it's a business model. You can make money doing this, right? Not a lot, but you get paid a little fee to manage a transaction. And with our brothel, you know, we're a developer, we're quote, unquote developer, you know. And so it's like, we get a small developer fee for that. And how do you drive in money creatively to nonprofits? Well, this is a way. Well, potentially.
Abby Newsham 27:45
Yeah, potentially. Because, I mean, that's another thing that's happening, a lot of organizations are facing cuts and funding is tight, and, yeah, we're in this very different world. And I think any creative way where you can do this kind of work and think creatively about funding. The work is super important. And one thing I want to clarify is that, so as you are providing grants and working with people to save buildings, these are, how do you define the type of buildings that you work on? They're not necessarily all like historically designated assets in the official sense of the word. How do you define this? Because I think historic preservation, that's kind of how I picture the box sometimes. Is that it's like the historic tax credit world. You know, does it qualify as a contributing asset or historic asset? Which is different than thinking about historic preservation more broadly, I think.
Bernice Radle 28:53
Interestingly enough, we have a lot of historic districts in Buffalo because our preservation people have been working hard since like 1978 or something, you know. So we have a lot of districts, but for me, how I define it is something that's, it's usually 50 years or old or older. However, we are working hard with a new group. There's a really cool turtle at the base of the falls. It's, um, literally, a sacred site for the indigenous community, and it's only 48 years old. And so the exception is, is this in a really incredible sacred, something super special? But usually it's 50 years older or or older. And we don't do historic districts. We don't wholly focus on historic districts. You know, like in Niagara Falls, there's very few historic districts because they don't have as many tools. So it's like, I just picked two zip codes. I said 142301, and 305 those are gonna be my priority areas. And it's got to be 50 years or older. And there's got to be a local owner, hopefully. And it's got to be like, ideally, around Main Street. So there's a big, vast vacant group of buildings on along Main Street in Niagara Falls. And so, I'm like, anything around here I want to put this money into. The thing about our world, and Abby, you know this, and you know, so many people that speak, I feel like, on upzoned know this. Being a doer means that you have to sort of think around, think outside the box. You have to kind of get creative. And it's okay to be kind of fluid and flexible, as long as you're focusing on on the big picture mission, right? And so I just feel like, yeah, like, if it's historic, it doesn't have to be a mansion, you know. We'll renovate it, you know. Yeah, okay, let's go, you know. By the way, there's two rules in my world. If there's historic trim that's unpainted, I'm not painting it. If there are historic floors, like wood floors that are there that can be finished and fixed, we're fixing them. And I'm not replacing a wood window with a vinyl window unless it's absolutely the last thing that needs to be done. So unless it's like no other option on Earth. And I, as a person who restores windows, I can restore them. It's like, you can't pull the wool over my eyes. I do understand. So, it's like keeping with the historic, you know, nature,
Abby Newsham 31:33
Yeah. So, over the past couple of years, Monty and I have been working with a non profit organization, and they're working to renovate an old school building. And to me, like that is historic preservation, but it does not qualify for historic tax credits, because it doesn't meet all the criteria for it to have that state designation. There was, like, an addition on it in the 50s, and, you know, something happened to the facade that makes it not qualify. And it's so sad, because I'm like, how can that be really the only meaningful tool, and so many buildings that I would call historic don't qualify? I find that part of the historic preservation world to be super frustrating, because I'm like, look at this structural brick masonry building. It's gorgeous, it deserves to be renovated, and if it qualified for historic tax credits, it would have been renovated already. But it just doesn't, because of the way that the rules are written.
Bernice Radle 32:43
So it's interesting that you say that, because I would agree normally. I understand that they have a job to do, right? And tax credits are meant to be for very historic, you know, buildings. But what we're seeing, at least in New York, is people are starting to really understand. It like, where there were the most demolitions and there's like two houses left, those are actually the most important. But the way preservation tends to look at things is, well, the whole neighborhood was demolished, so there's nothing historic left, even though there's two beautiful buildings sitting right there. It's a reverse. Like, that's where you should be protecting. Those last two remaining buildings, let's hold on to those. So in New York, at least, and here, there are several people that work at the State Historic Preservation, Shippo, that actually are starting to come around with that. Like on the east side, where they're redlined, where there's substantial demolition, they're now starting to say, wait a second, this is actually important. Like, we've gotten buildings eligible for the National Register, meaning for tax credits. We've got buildings that are like an old Schlitz brewery, like a two story little cutie brick building. Like, really, I mean, your school blows that thing out of the water. And then we got this, like, random building on William Street. It was important for a few things, but I couldn't really tell you why. You know, I'm not good at regurgitating facts and data like that. So I can't. I just don't remember at all. You know, I had to study really hard to get an A in school. Some people can, like, remember every fact. I can't do that. But the point is, like, you know, it should be more flexible. And I think in preservation and urbanism and like the strong towns ish, you know, we need to be taking an incremental approach to preservation. We don't have to do like- Actually, with the school Abby, your school, it was like, let's phase this out. That's what Monty was advising. Let's phase part one, right? Part two. That approach can exist. And it can actually save money in ways. You know, everybody says you spend more money, but you don't. You can. It's just offset.
Abby Newsham 34:51
It's devils in the details with that, right? Bingo. It's like, how you're actually doing it, executing. Yeah, right.
Bernice Radle 34:59
But, you know. There's nothing wrong with incremental like working through a property and phasing it over time and, you know, and being prudent, you know, I'm sure Chuck would love to hear me say that, right? It's like being a little more prudent on renovation. And there's something that's so beautiful about when you do things incrementally. Is like, let's say it's a restaurant or something, you go back and you see another change. You go back and you see another change, and people see you investing your time and your love and your energy into a building over and over and over again. And that is so powerful, you know? And so anyway, I know this is talking about preservation, not about incremental, but it all does matter.
Abby Newsham 35:40
Well it's about persistence, right? Like we're we're all trying, I think in the strong towns movement but also people who care about preservation. It's like we're all trying to persist, and we're all trying to chip away at allowing our neighborhoods and cities to persist. And I think that that's like, a very important quality for building momentum. And what I would really like to see is, kind of the urbanists and the historic preservationist movements merge together and find more common ground, rather than, I mean, at least here and I think a lot of places, people butt heads over these topics, and they don't have shared philosophy or even shared vocabulary about how to think about the built environment from a preservation lens versus an urbanist lens. And it's something that- I value both of those things, and I don't think that they're opposites, but that not everybody feels that way.
Bernice Radle 36:50
Yeah, well, let me tell you how zoning can influence preservation real quick. So this is a great little -- you guys, whoever's listening, bookmark this, because I'm going to help you and your town for zoning. So one, we remove minimum parking requirements citywide. Well, guess what that means? We don't have to demolish properties for parking lots, especially in these dense neighborhoods. So if you're pro preservation and you also are pro urbanism, get rid of your minimum parking like get rid of them. If we can do it in Buffalo, where it does snow, right? We need our streets and our like, snow piles up on the streets and it gets really tight. Trust me, if we can do it here, you can do it in the middle of Iowa or, you know, Idaho. So I want to say that. And then the other thing was, in our zoning code, we snuck in- We didn't sneak it in. It was in there. But we talked about it, we really pushed for it, called the adaptive reuse permit. So if you have a historic property, local landmark or national, you know, ideally local, you can apply for what's called a adaptive reuse permit. And so that means you can do anything you want inside the building, as long as you're not messing around with the exterior, and you're not putting anything on the lawn, like brewing tanks in front of a church. You can do anything you want in an old church, in an old historic you know these unique buildings, and it allowed that zoning has allowed us to do so much cool stuff here, right? We're not tearing down buildings often for parking. I have had a couple, and I, trust me, I've been fighting them. But the but churches can be adapted, unique, weird, factory buildings can be adapted, like all of these, you know. And so we called it a preservation adaptive reuse permit in our zoning code. And so, yeah, so zoning and preservation go together.
Abby Newsham 38:41
Yeah, that's fascinating.
Bernice Radle 38:44
There's so much that we can do. And the preservation movement is, like, right on the cusp of, like, urbanism. And I will say, I go to the preservation conference every year. Same with strong towns, you know, I'm at strong towns and the National Trust conference. And they are talking about zoning. They're talking about walkable places, but it's interesting enough, like, urbanist people don't really go. There are a couple people that go, but, but not very many. You know that kind of that you see at both conferences, which is really a bummer, because it's just like, you want to influence preservation? Get it in your zoning code. And for zoning advocates, you can use preservation as one of your tools to help you get good zoning passed. So they all work together.
Abby Newsham 39:33
Yeah, it's kind of like the incentives conversation. Like zoning can create incentives, just like tax abatement creates incentives. There's a lot of different ways that you can influence how things are developed. And I think doing a historic district or designation is not necessarily the only tool the toolbox, yeah. I was working in the Westport district in Kansas City, for many, many years. We actually worked with our historic preservation organization, historic Kansas City, on that project. And they did a whole historic assets, you know, survey or historic resources survey, what they call it. Ultimately, through the process, there were several different opportunities to do historic districts, and it actually was only the residential areas where it was formally recommended to do it. Historic Preservation actually took took form through zoning in the commercial mixed use areas. There's a lot of reasons for that, but that was really informative to me, to kind of learn about the different tools that people can use to support historic preservation. It's not all the same. And I think, yeah, what you're doing, what you're doing, is really inspiring. Because I feel like, at heart, I'm a historic preservationist. I also want to see urban areas evolve and develop. I'd love to see us take care of the buildings we have and build on all our parking lots, you know, like I wanna see both.
Bernice Radle 41:18
Same! Literally right now, I'm trying to facilitate a meeting or a presentation in Buffalo on pre approved plans. And people are like, what does that have to do with preservation? I was like, everything.
Abby Newsham 41:28
Everything! Yeah.
Bernice Radle 41:30
Like, it's infill.
Abby Newsham 41:33
We're zooming out.
Bernice Radle 41:35
Yeah, because, you know what, if we can get our pre approved plans in Buffalo, like, South Bend has them, or Kalamazoo, you know, or all these other places that are doing it can be really good for our historic neighborhoods. Yeah, it's new, but they can, you know, then now improve plans can, like, it can look more historic. It can have character. It can be without
Abby Newsham 41:57
pretending to be historic. Like, I think what a lot of really good, what really good architects do well in these contexts, is to be able to reinforce the vernacular and form of these buildings without trying to, you know, pretend to be built in 1900 and I mean, I have a whole library where I just collect building like new construction, buildings that meet that criteria, because there's so many good examples where people have done that, but it's like people we don't really talk about that. I think a lot of the times these conversations come up, and then people look at pictures of a building built 200 or 150 years ago, whatever. And we're just, we don't construct those anymore. That's not how we construct. But there are different ways to approach construction, and in ways that is more friendly. It doesn't have to be a glass box or anything.
Bernice Radle 42:56
Right. Or like, how about like, you see new construction in there. In Buffalo, your second floor should have three windows. Okay, that's like, it's like a standard house, yeah, your second floor has 1 2 3, windows, right? You know? And I'll see ones when it has just two windows and one's just missing. I'm like, What are we doing, you know? I'd rather guide the visuals. So that way our historic neighborhoods, as they get infilled, do look good and feel good, you know.
Abby Newsham 43:28
These little details are important. And it's like, you don't have to mimic the style of whatever it is, but there are certain details that are important. I look at infill housing in my neighborhood, you know, I live in a neighborhood with houses that are 100 plus years old. And then there's some infill housing happening, and it's like they'll do certain aspects of it, right? You know, they put the facade on the front. They don't have a garage right on the street, thankfully. But they, you know, instead of having a porch that's risen couple feet off the ground, that's big enough to put table and chairs out, they'll have a porch that is too small to actually use and on the ground, and then the doors on the ground. And it's like that's actually a really important detail, that the way your porch is slightly risen from the street in is big enough to actually sit on. That's a very important detail. People know that something's off when they're looking at the house, but it's like, you're not really sure. And I think that's one of the things, because I'm always staring at these buildings, trying to figure it out, and just even like where the second story windows are, as compared to the, you know, the porch overhang, the peak, yeah, like, that is done differently, and windows not being aligned, like, there's a lot of windows.
Bernice Radle 44:53
Yeah, you want, like, a funky window in the back, you know, put it in the back. Just put in the back, you know, where you can look at your backyard and your trees. Like, yeah, you want a weird triangle window? I'm here for it.
Abby Newsham 45:06
I feel like there's very inexpensive ways that, like, you can fix these things, like these you can be fixed. But I just don't think the builders are aware, like, they probably don't necessarily think about it in the same way. And so I think that that's, that's one of those things where an organization like yours, or the zoning or whatever, could tell them, like, hey, this is a detail that's important. We're not trying to put a bunch of like, architectural rules on you, but like, this is a detail that actually matters.
Bernice Radle 45:39
Absolutely. And by the way, porches should be really a minimum of eight feet wide, like, you know, some people do six, and that's okay. But you want an adirondack chair on a porch, it better be eight feet deep, you know, like, so you can lay back, put your beer on the table, or whatever, get some string lights. People miss that detail all the time. By the way, I once did a full new porch on a historic building, and I thought I got the dimensions right, but I was like a foot off because it, you know, it wasn't there. And so I ended up making it just narrow enough where the porch was never used, because they made it like six, it was like maybe six feet, but had a bay, you know? And you're just like, noooo. I'm trying to do the right thing. So you live and you learn right. Small developers out there, make sure you get your porches right! So anyway, well, we should chit chat about this other article.
Bernice Radle 46:38
Yeah, let's talk about it before we wrap. Um, yeah. So let's talk about this fund.
Bernice Radle 46:55
Well, this is across the country, actually. So this historic preservation fund.People know that all the culturals are getting cut left and right all around the country, no matter where you're at. Parks, you know, historic preservation, the IRS, all of the things, right? So there's like, just cuts, cuts, cuts. And what's happening is- it's called a historic preservation fund. The Historic Preservation Fund funds all kinds of things, including staff that review the historic tax credit deals. So like in Buffalo, probably 95% of all of our projects are some sort of historic tax credit project, because we're a poor place. We still need this tax credit, right? I'm sure you know, even in Indiana, there's tax credits. Even in Michigan, there's, right? There's all around the country, people use this historic tax credit program. In fact, by the way, it's super supported by both Republican and Democrat. It's not just Democrat like, it's a big deal for them, for Republican towns, villages, properties, state like, you know, Republican led towns, villages, states, and also Democrat led towns, you know, villages, and the States as a whole. So this fund that they're cutting is basically, like, from a reservation perspective, it's like a bloodbath. It's like, it's bad, you know, and it's horrible. And there are a lot of people wrapped up in it. There's a lot of staff, you know, time that's getting cut, and there's a lot of money that, like, gets funneled out through, you know, grants and funding streams and loans and things that you know, for our churches that are very historic and important, or for, you know, historic districts and for certified local governments like that need that funding. It just, it just starts to trickle, you know, starts to trickle. And, you know, I think from a preservation perspective, I mean, I'm not sure we are at our organization. It's funny, because we don't really have any money coming from that right now, from this fund. But we joined all the reservation organizations because we usually have money. We just, I got more creative with the affordable housing money. So we, instead of seeking funds through this, I was like, let's go to hit the affordable housing people, right and get some money there. So we're actually, like, at our organizations a little more right now, okay, but it's just gonna just trickle down like crazy. And it goes to say that diversity of income is really important, right? Diversity of properties, diversity of people, diversity of income, diversity of mixed use, like all of it is, like, really important. And I think from a preservation perspective, all the organizations out there, if you run a nonprofit, you know, it's just, you can't, you know, you just got to try to diversify as much as possible. And, you know, and that's but I don't know what else to say, because I don't know what's going to happen.
Abby Newsham 49:53
I mean, it's like, it's the finance people were right. Like, diversify, diversify, diversify. I feel like we're all. All getting a crash course, and that right now that it's, I mean, with all these cuts, it's very stressful for a lot of people. And I mean, I'm glad that Buffalo has you on kind of the forefront of thinking creatively, and you, you have an understanding of finance, you've worked as a private developer and have have that background, and I think that for the historic preservation movement that is, it's going to be really important to bring people to the table that understand development finance and understand how to do things differently, because the money is not going to be, you know, there may be, still philanthropy that can step in, but understanding different aspects of a capital stack and tax incentives and, like, I think that that that's so critical. And I I wish you were in Kansas City. Honestly, I
Bernice Radle 50:55
know it's funny, like, well and neighborhood evolution, we do help people around the country. We could, if people have a church or something like, we can run proformas pretty quickly and very reasonably. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to pay, but I'm just saying it's like, no, you're fine. Do that across country. We do do that, you know, and myself money, Mike, Jim, like, you know, we try, we try to reach as much as we can. We I can't tell you how many churches we've been helping lately, historic churches. I mean, we did a whole talk at strong towns on churches, big boxes and golf courses, partially because of you, Abby, because you had connected us to the golf course. Yeah, that's, you know, yeah, so, but, um, you know, I think for people, you know, in this it is important to know finance. I had a meeting today with a bank about getting a bridge loan for $1.4 million worth, because I got grants for a building, and I walked in with a full bank package, with a full pro forma, with a full rent roll. I had everything printed for them, and here I am. I'm wearing my Mohawk place t shirt. I just bought this my sticky venue. I'm like, you know, my hair is in a bun, like I'm wearing my Birken socks, whatever, like, you know. So I am the least, like, official person that should walk in that door, but I smile and I give them what they need, and they're like, Yeah, we're really comfortable with this. This together. Where are your financials? Let me I can get you my financials. Are you? If you're comfortable with this, I'll get you everything you need by Monday at like, 3pm you know? And they're like, great, so, so it's just about preparing yourself. One of the rules we have at neighborhood evolution is you have to make yourself attracted to money, right? And so by doing that, what do you do? You get your logo, you get your project together, you get your bank package together, you get all that stuff. But that flows in, and that helps you get money. But it also, like, helps, you know, in preservation, it helps you get more creative. Like, I remember when, like, just recently, I said, I don't know if I can be creative. I was I've been creative my whole life in development, because Buffalo has been worth most properties I buy were, like, $1 you have to be so creative to, like, make that make sense and but I said to myself, I don't know if I can be more creative, like I've been, my creativity is tapped, right? And then, of course, as soon as all this I have, I'm like, wait a second. I'm like, Let's go nonprofit. Let's do founding member money, let's do our zoning code. Let's do, you know, let's get a bridge loan. Let's figure out how we need grants. Let's you know, receivership, like all these other tools that are sitting there. So really encourage people out there, especially in small development like, think about the tools that are out there. Inquire about your preservation tools. Inquire about receivership. Inquire about like, revolving loan funds, like, and then, if it doesn't exist, call your preservation organization, speak to somebody like, if they have a house museum, they know how to finance if they've got a preservation House Museum or some preservation you know, like the Casey group. They brought me in 2015 I came to do a talk through your group. Like they're all over the states in the country. They're there. Like, call them up and say, let's address the zoning code. Let's address the vacancies. How can I help right
Abby Newsham 54:05
build these bridges? And I actually think that, like you said, like, there are people in the historic preservation community that are like, at their conferences, they're talking about zoning, they're talking they're starting to talk about these, like urbanist topics. I feel like in the urbanist community, we're not really talking about historic preservation. And I think that people who are strong towns advocates and people who are, you know, in the urbanist space like we should be talking about historic preservation, and it can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but I think we all care about cool, old buildings, and I think we need to be inquiring about what the possibilities are. And to your point, it's like sometimes that just means like sending an email or picking up the phone and calling somebody who knows what they're talking about.
Bernice Radle 54:56
Yeah, preservation attend a preservation meeting. Attend a zoning board meeting like it's go, you know, bring your popcorn, bring like, it's like, but you know, all of those things are so important, and they all, they all really go hand in. I can't tell you how many served on the zoning board for nine years. I can't tell you how many preservation intertwined zoning is the issues there were, and how important, even like having good zoning board influences walkable communities, obviously, right? But also preservation. So, yeah, so I feel like we've talked a lot about historic buildings in the last hour, and some people are probably gonna like these, these girls, but like,
Abby Newsham 55:36
yeah, if you've made it this far, thank you. Yeah,
Bernice Radle 55:39
yes, absolutely, I know. And also, you know, while we're just like kind of a lasting thought for me is our communities really need nurturing, and nurturing comes through community, and it comes through preservation, it comes through small scale, incremental development, local ownership, all of that is nurturing. And so when you take a step back and you go, how can I help my neighborhood be better? How can I get involved, you know, in strong towns or in the movement, think about ways that you can nurture your community, right? Planting flowers is preservation, to me, at least, yeah, you know, it is small scale development. It is urban, urbanism, you know, and and so if you take a step back and say, How can I help my community, it may just be that right? But like, don't be afraid to kind of get involved and nurture, nurture. The spreadsheet is important for your finances, but nurturing should be equally as important as like, making that those numbers work, and when you can marry those two like it really, that's magic. That's the magic wand. That's magic.
Abby Newsham 56:51
Okay, well, let's This is awesome. Be nice, and it's great to catch up with you. I do want to do the down zone. If you have something for me as we as we finish the question, anything that what doesn't have to be reading, it could be anything that you're doing these days, anything that's taking up your time.
Bernice Radle 57:12
Well, I bought the sticky music venue, which is really good. And so it's funny, because what this is going to do is marry my two favorite things in the whole wide world, which is music and small scale development. So this will be my first project where I, because people don't know this, but, like, almost with the school for music education, I was in every chorus, every band, theater, all the things like, I still, I've, I've had numerous bands which I won't say the names of so I won't you know. Maybe one day, if you get to know me, maybe I'll share, but not you. But like, people out there, like lots of people. In fact, I played at this venue, Mohawk place, many, many times. And so for me personally, it's like, all hands on deck trying to clean up all the muck and figure out the next steps and stuff. And then I also will say just as, like, they don't pay me to say this, but like, I've been really, I've been really excited about the Gilded Age, which is the HBO show, because I love the history and the outfits and the drama. So don't, you know, don't judge me. And people listening, don't judge me. I can't, you know. So what about you? That's awesome. I'm doing art shows.
Abby Newsham 58:20
Yeah, dude, I think I feel like that. I feel like it's my alter ego a little bit, but it does take up, like, all my free time. But I've been doing a lot of painting. I bought a 10 by 10 tent. I'm figuring out the panels and the hanging so I've been doing art shows, I've been doing um galleries, and I've been doing some commission paintings. And so I just like, I love, I love doing this. And so it's like, yeah, yes, I have my full time job, but also I am now like diving headfirst into this whole world of both painting but also learning about like the business of art. And you know, there's so many aspects of it, from like commissions to collectors to prints to wholesaling, like there's all these different categories, and, you know, types of fires of art. And to be honest with you, like I just as much as I love painting, I love geeking out on, like, the business of how it all works, because it's just like endless new information that I love figuring this stuff out and learning about it. And I'd love to, like, write, like a like, a toolkit about it for other people. Yeah, so interesting. I love to learn stuff and and I love to learn stuff that, like, I can hopefully pay for my hobby with. That would be nice.
Bernice Radle 1:00:00
You will. Yeah, by the way, you need a name for your alter ego. Could be Abigail. You'd be like Abigail's in the room.
Abby Newsham 1:00:07
Well, actually, like, I've just done, like, Abby cat paints, because my middle name is Catherine. Like, that's not to promote my Instagram, but that's where I post all my stuff. So I've just been doing Abby cat because, like, that's super cute. Yeah, it's just, there's my alter ego. Otherwise, I'm just Abby, just regular planner, boring planner, I'm just kidding. No, yeah, urban planner, Abby. And then there's Abby cat painter.
Bernice Radle 1:00:42
Yeah, I know. Well, I have enjoyed this whole hour with you. Yeah, I know two, two articles. That's what they get.
Abby Newsham 1:00:54
That what you get, yeah. So yeah. I'm delivering, and I promise I won't have such a long gap anymore. I just, you know, you know how it is. Life. All right. Bernice, farewell.
Bernice Radle 1:01:06
Thanks. Abby. Looking forward to seeing you guys at some point.
Abby Newsham 1:01:09
All right. Bye, y'all.
ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES
“Proposed bill would give Buffalo housing court greater authority over derelict properties” by Nate Benson, WGRZ (May 2025).
“Preservation Under Threat: A Critical Moment for the Historic Preservation Fund” by Preservation Buffalo Niagara, Buffalo Rising (June 2025).
See more from Bernice:
Abby Newsham (X/Twitter).
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Abby Newsham is the cohost of the Upzoned podcast. Abby is an urban design and planning consultant at Multistudio in Kansas City, Missouri. In her own community, she works to advance bottom-up strategies that enhance both private development and the public realm, and facilitates the ad-hoc Kansas City chapter of the Incremental Development Alliance. When she’s not geeking out over cities, Abby is an avid urban mountain biker (because: potholes), audiobook and podcast junkie, amateur rock climber, and guitarist. You can connect with Abby on Twitter at @abbykatkc.